Lots of Christians were sleeping on just how far adrift evangelical Christianity had grown from the teachings of Jesus. Trump's 2016 election win shocked many (but not enough) people awake.
What drives me even more insane are some members of my church who actually believe he is a good Christian man… as far as they’re concerned, he’s been demonized by the media who have kept it a secret all of these years as to what s fine, upstanding Christian he actually is. I literally just about lost my mind over that one.
Have a look at what Tolstoy, yes, the russian writer Leo Tolstoy' wrote about his beliefs in Christ, and the distortions he was already seeing in the church more than 200 years ago...his shock on how Christians could even accept the existence of a national army, enlist as a soldier, nevermind supporting war, killing in the name of America and democracy... He defended followers of Christ should be anarchists and not even vote in that respect... We are still participating in a man' s made system that will always be unjust... We are not trying enough to create local resiliente communities that are based in cooperation more than competition... We are still engaging in violence to resist evil, when our struggles are not against flesh and blood... As you mentioned, God never planned for His/Her children to be a nation with a king, or president... and clearly said what that king would bring to the people he would rule over.. still, we give power to these powers and rulers... I don't follow news for many years, but what I hear now is really shocking...in all directions ...A guy like Trump claims to be Christian? Wow... Maybe like Constantine...maybe he will bring "peace" as the Romans brought the "pax romana"... Not all Jews in Jesus' time were against the Roman empire you know... it's still the same... people want "safety" and "security" with the "man with the bigger guns" ... If we are still waiting for a human " king" to come and rule us properly, we are missing the point here ... And the possible danger of that fake "peace" in exchange for ALL our freedoms as human kind .. I would be concerned if I would ear rumours like this... I hope I'm making sense ...
we were, are and will always be called to be the resistance part...the ones who die and are forgotten... Until there are enough humans saying " enough" ...we "repent" ...we turn our backs to this imperial oppressively system... We join the poorest and share all we have ... We don't comform to this world, for greater is the Spirit in us than the one in this world....we are in this world but are not of it... And we try our best to love one another ... Leave America, give your passport back... Live in community with the poor... I don't know ..I'm rambling here...
Let's live the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven... Let's join the victims and oppressed and set them free... Forget about the evangelicals , and post, and whatever else is the new wave ...
May we become more out particular part in this body of Christ, who is definitely not all "Christian"... And may we be contagious with our love to all those who get to know us...in our families, among our friends, even among trump lovers .. let's smile and love as much as it's possible and when necessary, turn the tables... Because this planet is our Father's house... Human kind, no matter what ethnicity, language. Culture or nationality is our Father's house... Let the trumps, Putin's and others rise and do their show...let us not give then the power they think they have... They can kill .. but we can die...with our arms open and not silenced...
Colby, I had to conclude that the division between believers who take Jesus seriously and those who thirst for political dominance always existed under the surface of evangelical christianity. The Trump phenomenon (which actually began in earnest in 1980 with the Moral Majority and the conscious decision of most evangelicals to turn the backs on the Sunday School teacher who was probably the finest example of a christian/human being ever to grace the White House) only brought this divide out into the open. It revealed that what the evangelical christianity always was, and what it was was never me. I just did not know this until Trump.
I didn't suffer the affects of whiplash because I was already backing out of evangelicalism. I just kept backing out in dismay.
I think you're a little hard on Hillary Clinton. While it is true that she is not a perfect human being, she is a quiet christian, part of a pious christian tradition (Methodists) that does not self-proclaim. My understanding is that this lady rises every morning to read her Bible and pray. And the evangelical church said, We'd rather have Trump ... in part because few christians were aware of Clinton's personal piety because for her, it is deeply personal, and not something to parade in front of voters. The irony of it all!
An excellent resource tracing the slide of conservative America including evangelicalism into the political morass of MAGA is Heather Cox Richardson's *Democracy Awakening*.
My friend Rev Jonah Overton recently said something similar on one of our episodes of "Keep Christ in Christian." That the MAGA movement revealed an undercurrent of a kind of evangelical Christianity that has always been there. I think they (and you) are correct.
I also trust your insight insofar as you've been at this for longer than I have :) You context is much appreciated.
You may be correct in your assessment of Hillary.. I suppose the point I was trying to make was more an attempt to Steelman the opposing view that saw her as a moral evil. While I don[t think the comparison to her and Trump are anywhere remotely similar, I at least wanted to hold space for the perspective of those who saw no Sainthood in her, either. (Whether that's reflective of who she actually is or not).
I respect your views and statements you shared about morality -"whiplash". I look at it differently, God is in control. God is using President Trump for his purposes. Israel loves him. We would all be dead whether we be Christian, Jew, gay or straight if the terrorist had their way to convert everyone in the world to Islam or to the Muslim religion.
P.S. So far, I have not noticed any increase attacts on gay people as my gay cousin fears. Perhaps attention has shifted to Anti-semitism instead of on or about gay people. Thanks for sharing your insites about what's happen to Evangelical Chistians. I think of Bill Clinton, he wasn't perfect either but he got re-elected. Appearentlyj, he was the man for the job inspite of his sins.
Thanks for sharing, Paul. I can't totally go there with you on the "God is in control" sentiment, because there's too much wrapped up in that word "control," that I'm not sure I could sign off unless I knew what exactly was meant by it. For me, God is not a controlling force (as far as I can tell or understand).
And I definitely would not agree with teh idea that "God is using Trump for his purposes."
I think God's purposes are pretty clear (meaning, jesus' teachings on the Kingdom). And those purposes are not being manifest in any real way through Trump or the MAGA movement.
Thanks for articulating what I and so many others are struggling with. I think the whiplash stems from fundamentally misunderstanding what evangelicalism has always a been about – being right.
Every evangelical church I was affiliated with has statements of belief which serve a critical purpose and has a devastating outcome. Evangelical statements of belief help believers know that their theology is right. Evangelicals are obsessed with perfecting their theology. A Christian man I was once close to said he wished Jesus would come and tell him what he was thinking wrong about. When I suggested perhaps Jesus might come and tell him how to love better, he stammered and said “yes, but I need to know what I am thinking wrong about”. A pastor I respected said his biggest fear was getting to heaven and having Jesus confront him about his faulty theology. Every Christian men’s group I was a part of focused almost exclusively on how to think right about different issues. (That and porn. Besides theology, Christian men talk incessantly about porn).
The Church says to believers that “if you believe these statements of belief, you will be righteous and you are one of us. If you don’t believe these statements of belief, you are not righteous and you are one of them”. Creating a sense of righteousness is the critical purpose of evangelical’s obsession with perfecting their theology. A devastating outcome is a sense of “us” vs “them”. If you believe correctly, you are one of “us”. If not, you are one of “THEM”.
Trump succeeded because he recognized this and tapped into. Trump told evangelicals that they are right. That he violates the greatest commandment, to love, is irrelevant. Because to evangelicals, the greatest commandment isn’t to love, it is to be right. Trump said “you are right about abortion. You are right about LGBTQ+. You are right that your loss of influence is an attack on your faith. You are “us” and everyone else is “them”. I am one of you because I believe the right things. If you make me the most powerful person on earth, I will make sure everyone knows you are right, and I will keep you safe”.
Trump’s election and reelection is totally predictable for a faith group that has never been about love and has always been about being “right”.
I agree, Greg, that evangelicalism's priority on "being right" has been and continues to be its achilles heel.
To think that Jesus would confront us on our theology at the pearly gates... so bizarre... especially since Jesus already gave us a preview of what to expect! Matt 25:31-46
I think you give Trump too much credit when you say he "recognized and tapped into" something. I'm more and more convinced that he has virtually zero forethought or strategy in what he does.... including "recognizing" patterns and then being intentional to "tap into" them. But regardless, you're not wrong: his Way was and is clearly appealing for many Evies. He always believes he is right; Evies also want to be right; therefore aligning with him feels really good.
What drives me even more insane are some members of my church who actually believe he is a good Christian man… as far as they’re concerned, he’s been demonized by the media who have kept it a secret all of these years as to what s fine, upstanding Christian he actually is. I literally just about lost my mind over that one.
Mind blowing, indeed.
I had all those questions, as well! This history lesson by Monte Mader has helped make it make sense - SO worth the time to listen!! https://youtu.be/uYpC2gIMLIM?si=Sbrp6uqzEiIG6Isy
Have a look at what Tolstoy, yes, the russian writer Leo Tolstoy' wrote about his beliefs in Christ, and the distortions he was already seeing in the church more than 200 years ago...his shock on how Christians could even accept the existence of a national army, enlist as a soldier, nevermind supporting war, killing in the name of America and democracy... He defended followers of Christ should be anarchists and not even vote in that respect... We are still participating in a man' s made system that will always be unjust... We are not trying enough to create local resiliente communities that are based in cooperation more than competition... We are still engaging in violence to resist evil, when our struggles are not against flesh and blood... As you mentioned, God never planned for His/Her children to be a nation with a king, or president... and clearly said what that king would bring to the people he would rule over.. still, we give power to these powers and rulers... I don't follow news for many years, but what I hear now is really shocking...in all directions ...A guy like Trump claims to be Christian? Wow... Maybe like Constantine...maybe he will bring "peace" as the Romans brought the "pax romana"... Not all Jews in Jesus' time were against the Roman empire you know... it's still the same... people want "safety" and "security" with the "man with the bigger guns" ... If we are still waiting for a human " king" to come and rule us properly, we are missing the point here ... And the possible danger of that fake "peace" in exchange for ALL our freedoms as human kind .. I would be concerned if I would ear rumours like this... I hope I'm making sense ...
we were, are and will always be called to be the resistance part...the ones who die and are forgotten... Until there are enough humans saying " enough" ...we "repent" ...we turn our backs to this imperial oppressively system... We join the poorest and share all we have ... We don't comform to this world, for greater is the Spirit in us than the one in this world....we are in this world but are not of it... And we try our best to love one another ... Leave America, give your passport back... Live in community with the poor... I don't know ..I'm rambling here...
Let's live the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven... Let's join the victims and oppressed and set them free... Forget about the evangelicals , and post, and whatever else is the new wave ...
May we become more out particular part in this body of Christ, who is definitely not all "Christian"... And may we be contagious with our love to all those who get to know us...in our families, among our friends, even among trump lovers .. let's smile and love as much as it's possible and when necessary, turn the tables... Because this planet is our Father's house... Human kind, no matter what ethnicity, language. Culture or nationality is our Father's house... Let the trumps, Putin's and others rise and do their show...let us not give then the power they think they have... They can kill .. but we can die...with our arms open and not silenced...
Colby, I had to conclude that the division between believers who take Jesus seriously and those who thirst for political dominance always existed under the surface of evangelical christianity. The Trump phenomenon (which actually began in earnest in 1980 with the Moral Majority and the conscious decision of most evangelicals to turn the backs on the Sunday School teacher who was probably the finest example of a christian/human being ever to grace the White House) only brought this divide out into the open. It revealed that what the evangelical christianity always was, and what it was was never me. I just did not know this until Trump.
I didn't suffer the affects of whiplash because I was already backing out of evangelicalism. I just kept backing out in dismay.
I think you're a little hard on Hillary Clinton. While it is true that she is not a perfect human being, she is a quiet christian, part of a pious christian tradition (Methodists) that does not self-proclaim. My understanding is that this lady rises every morning to read her Bible and pray. And the evangelical church said, We'd rather have Trump ... in part because few christians were aware of Clinton's personal piety because for her, it is deeply personal, and not something to parade in front of voters. The irony of it all!
An excellent resource tracing the slide of conservative America including evangelicalism into the political morass of MAGA is Heather Cox Richardson's *Democracy Awakening*.
My friend Rev Jonah Overton recently said something similar on one of our episodes of "Keep Christ in Christian." That the MAGA movement revealed an undercurrent of a kind of evangelical Christianity that has always been there. I think they (and you) are correct.
I also trust your insight insofar as you've been at this for longer than I have :) You context is much appreciated.
You may be correct in your assessment of Hillary.. I suppose the point I was trying to make was more an attempt to Steelman the opposing view that saw her as a moral evil. While I don[t think the comparison to her and Trump are anywhere remotely similar, I at least wanted to hold space for the perspective of those who saw no Sainthood in her, either. (Whether that's reflective of who she actually is or not).
I respect your views and statements you shared about morality -"whiplash". I look at it differently, God is in control. God is using President Trump for his purposes. Israel loves him. We would all be dead whether we be Christian, Jew, gay or straight if the terrorist had their way to convert everyone in the world to Islam or to the Muslim religion.
P.S. So far, I have not noticed any increase attacts on gay people as my gay cousin fears. Perhaps attention has shifted to Anti-semitism instead of on or about gay people. Thanks for sharing your insites about what's happen to Evangelical Chistians. I think of Bill Clinton, he wasn't perfect either but he got re-elected. Appearentlyj, he was the man for the job inspite of his sins.
Thanks for sharing, Paul. I can't totally go there with you on the "God is in control" sentiment, because there's too much wrapped up in that word "control," that I'm not sure I could sign off unless I knew what exactly was meant by it. For me, God is not a controlling force (as far as I can tell or understand).
And I definitely would not agree with teh idea that "God is using Trump for his purposes."
I think God's purposes are pretty clear (meaning, jesus' teachings on the Kingdom). And those purposes are not being manifest in any real way through Trump or the MAGA movement.
Colby
Thanks for articulating what I and so many others are struggling with. I think the whiplash stems from fundamentally misunderstanding what evangelicalism has always a been about – being right.
Every evangelical church I was affiliated with has statements of belief which serve a critical purpose and has a devastating outcome. Evangelical statements of belief help believers know that their theology is right. Evangelicals are obsessed with perfecting their theology. A Christian man I was once close to said he wished Jesus would come and tell him what he was thinking wrong about. When I suggested perhaps Jesus might come and tell him how to love better, he stammered and said “yes, but I need to know what I am thinking wrong about”. A pastor I respected said his biggest fear was getting to heaven and having Jesus confront him about his faulty theology. Every Christian men’s group I was a part of focused almost exclusively on how to think right about different issues. (That and porn. Besides theology, Christian men talk incessantly about porn).
The Church says to believers that “if you believe these statements of belief, you will be righteous and you are one of us. If you don’t believe these statements of belief, you are not righteous and you are one of them”. Creating a sense of righteousness is the critical purpose of evangelical’s obsession with perfecting their theology. A devastating outcome is a sense of “us” vs “them”. If you believe correctly, you are one of “us”. If not, you are one of “THEM”.
Trump succeeded because he recognized this and tapped into. Trump told evangelicals that they are right. That he violates the greatest commandment, to love, is irrelevant. Because to evangelicals, the greatest commandment isn’t to love, it is to be right. Trump said “you are right about abortion. You are right about LGBTQ+. You are right that your loss of influence is an attack on your faith. You are “us” and everyone else is “them”. I am one of you because I believe the right things. If you make me the most powerful person on earth, I will make sure everyone knows you are right, and I will keep you safe”.
Trump’s election and reelection is totally predictable for a faith group that has never been about love and has always been about being “right”.
I agree, Greg, that evangelicalism's priority on "being right" has been and continues to be its achilles heel.
To think that Jesus would confront us on our theology at the pearly gates... so bizarre... especially since Jesus already gave us a preview of what to expect! Matt 25:31-46
I think you give Trump too much credit when you say he "recognized and tapped into" something. I'm more and more convinced that he has virtually zero forethought or strategy in what he does.... including "recognizing" patterns and then being intentional to "tap into" them. But regardless, you're not wrong: his Way was and is clearly appealing for many Evies. He always believes he is right; Evies also want to be right; therefore aligning with him feels really good.
The whiplash only hurts the first time.
After that, the neck just stops expecting integrity from people who traded the Sermon on the Mount for a red hat and a gold-plated throne.
Once you’ve seen the cross shrink into a campaign logo, you can’t unsee it — but you can stop pretending it’s still the same faith.